The material in this site has been released into the public domain. If you are interested in these recordings, it is strongly recommended that you download them now since they will soon be moved to another site. More tapes are scheduled to be released.

El material de este sitio es de dominio publico. Si esta interesado en estas grabaciones, se recomienda que las baje ahora ya que pronto seran trasladadas a otra plataforma. Hay mas grabaciones a punto de ser publicadas.

 

The story of Nila and Bill is not at this site. You will find it at: Nila and Bill

La historia de Nila y Bill no se encuentra en este sitio. La encontrara en: El Crazy Che

 

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 Maria Vicotria calls me from Pittsburgh on the 28th of March of 1994 to tell me that she has brought photos of Lazara and Pepe. With these pictures, Lazara and Pepe hoped to establish their bonafides with the CIA. 

 Maria Victoria me llama desde Pittsburgh el 28 de Marzo de 1994 para decirme que trajo fotos de Lazara y Pepe. Con estas fotos, Lazara y Pepe intentaron establecer sus credenciales con la CIA.

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Maria Victoria: 

Bill:  uh! Yes, aja

Maria Victoria:  … of Lazara. I am a friend of them. I have here a letter, but I do not have your address. He gave me only your telephone number. It is a photographic roll with the photos of the children… My name is Maria Victoria de Bernard. I am a painter. I will be here till June, 15th. I want to send you these photos that Pepe gave to me and also that you have his telephone and address for what you want to send him and you put everything into an envelopment.

Bill:  Ah! Ok, wait. Wait, I will write all this. Wait a sec.

Maria Victoria:  Me too, I will look for my pen.

Bill:  ok, ok

Maria Victoria:  Ok

Bill: Hello?

Maria Victoria:  Yes

Bill:  Ah! yes

Maria Victoria:  I am Maria Victoria

Bill:  Maria Victoria

Maria Victoria:  ...de Bernard

Bill: de, d e r n a r?

Maria Victoria:  de Bernard with the big B, finish in r and d.

Bill:  Oh! Bernard

Maria Victoria:  de Bernard. Aja!

Bill:  Right

Maria Victoria:  I am in the telephone number: 4124214458

Bill:  4458 aja

Maria Victoria:

Bill:

Maria Victoria:  Don’t move

Bill:  Ok, I'll wait

Maria Victoria:  I've been calling you for many days, but your telephone was always busy.  Today it wasa busy all

day.

Bill:  Yeah, because... yes. That's the way things are.

Maria Victoria:  …because if not I got to pay (the phone)

Bill:  Oh, Ok. Why don't I call you back?

Maria Victoria:  ahhh, ok

Bill:  That way you don’t have to pay.

Maria Victoria:  ahhh, ok

Bill:  let me see

Maria Victoria: 

Bill:  no, no, it’s the same, it doen’t matter

Maria Victoria:  ok

Bill:  I'll call you back. At this phone number 40446

Maria Victoria:  Ok, then, call me in a moment.

Bill:  I will call you right now.

Maria Victoria:  OK, good, goodbye.

Bill:  Goodbye.

Maria Victoria:  Hello?

Bill:  Great!

Maria Victoria:  Aha! What's the address? Wilkins

Bill:  Wilkins

Maria Victoria:  Wilkins Avenue

Bill:  What number?

Maria Victoria:  5552

Bill:  5552 Wilkins Avenue

Maria Victoria:  Aha.

Bill:  Aha.

Maria Victoria:  Pittsburg.

Bill:  Correct

Maria Victoria:  Pittsburg.

Bill:  Yes.

Maria Victoria:  Pennsylvania.

Bill:  Correct. What's your zipcode?

Maria Victoria:  15217

Bill:  Okay.

Maria Victoria:  Yes, correct. They're sending you a photographic roll.

Bill:  Aha.

Maria Victoria:  What happened was that I came on Thursday.

Bill:  Aha.

Maria Victoria:  and I was in a hurry and then, I called you, and I called, and I called, but your phone was always busy.

Bill:  Aha.

Maria Victoria:  and I was thinking that it couldn’t be when you answer the phone. Probably was another matter. Because I will call now on Thursday to Pepe telling him that everything was alright. Ok?

Bill:  Ah yes, but just in case, don’t mention my name.

Maria Victoria:  Ahhhh! No! I know what I must do.

Bill:  Ah! Ok, ok

Maria Victoria:  But I have all my instructions. What's wrong with you?

Bill:  Then, when is it? This Thursday?

Maria Victoria:  on Thursday

Bill:  Ahhh!

Maria Victoria:  On Thursday, the number that I gave you, in other words, on Thursday I call to my house (in Cuba) and I will give the message that I'm supposed to give. So that, after that, we will see because I will call the next Thursday and give you that (the photos)

Bill:  Probably you can send it with envelopment that you're here, but for sure, he doen’t…

Maria Victoria:  don’t worry, I will go and send it, don’t worry

Bill:  Ah, good, good

Maria Victoria:  Don’t worry, I will tell you something, I tell you sincerely, talking over the telephone is very difficult, but if your want to tell him something

Bill:  Aha

Maria Victoria:  I am at this address, and at that phone. I will leave on the 15th of June. If you can contact him some other way, in order to determine who I am, no problem.

Bill:  Take it easy, take it easy.

Maria Victoria:  When you speak with him, you will know because there is a photo with Pepe and me are together, and then Lazara and me

Bill:  And that picture, when did you take it?

Maria Victoria:  That was in the same week when I left Cuba

Bill:  In other words, when you left [Cuba]

Maria Victoria:  Yes

Bill:  At his house or where?

Maria Victoria:  In his house

 

Maria Victoria: 

Bill:  uh! Si, aja

Maria Victoria:  …de Lazara. Yo soy muy amiga de ellos. Tengo aqui una carta, pero no tengo tu direccion. Lo unico que me dio fue tu telefono. Es un rollo con la foto de los ninos... Yo me llamo Maria Victoria de Bernard. Yo soy pintora. Voy a estar hasta el 15 de junio. Yo te quiero mandar estas fotos que me dio Pepe y tambien que tu tengas su telefono y direccion para lo que tu quieras mandar y me lo metas todo en un sobre.

Bill:  Ah! Bueno, espera. Espera que anoto todo esto. Esperame un segundo.

Maria Victoria:  Yo tambien, voy a buscar mi pluma.

Bill:  Bueno, bueno.

Maria Victoria: OK.

Bill:  alo?

Maria Victoria:  Si

Bill:  Ah! Si

Maria Victoria:  Yo soy Maria Victoria

Bill:  Maria Victoria

Maria Victoria:  ...de Bernard

Bill:  de, d e r n a r?

Maria Victoria:  de Bernard con B alta, terminado en r y d.

Bill:  Oh! Bernard

Maria Victoria:  de Bernard. Aja!

Bill:  Correcto

Maria Victoria:  Estoy en el numero: 4124214458

Bill:  4458 aja

Maria Victoria: 

Bill: 

Maria Victoria:  No te muevas de ahi

Bill: Ok, espero

Maria Victoria:  Oye, yo te estuve llamando hace varios dias, pero el telefono tuyo me daba ocupado. Hoy todo el dia me estuvo dando ocupado.

Bill:  ehhh, porque si. Asi son las cosas.

Maria Victoria:  …porque si no hay que pagar

Bill:  Bueno, espera, porque no te llamo atras

Maria Victoria:  ahhh, bueno

Bill:  asi no tenes que pagar

Maria Victoria:  ahh, bueno, oye, oye, oye

Bill:  a ver

Maria Victoria: 

Bill:  no, no, igual, eso no hay problema

Maria Victoria:  esta bien

Bill: Yo te llamo. A este numero 40446

Maria Victoria:  ok, entonces, llamame dentro de un ratico

Bill: ahora mismo ya te llamo

Maria Victoria:  esta bien, bueno,chau

Bill:  chau

Maria Victoria:  Oigo

Bill: Bueno

Maria Victoria:  aja! Cual es la direccion? Wilkins

Bill:  Wilkins

Maria Victoria:  Wilkins Avenida, Avenue

Bill: Cual es el numero?

Maria Victoria:  5552

Bill:  5552 Wilkins Avenue

Maria Victoria:  Aja

Bill: Aja

Maria Victoria:  voy, Pittsburg

Bill:  correcto

Maria Victoria:  Pittsburg

Bill:  Si

Maria Victoria:  Pensylvania

Bill: correcto, cual codigo tenes?

Maria Victoria:  15217

Bill:  Bueno

Maria Victoria:  Ya, correcto. Ellos te mandan un rollo de fotografia.

Bill:  Aja

Maria Victoria:  Lo que pasa es que yo vine el jueves,

Bill:  Aja

Maria Victoria:  y estaba media apurada y entonces, llamaba, y llamaba y llamaba y me daba ocupado

Bill:  Aja

Maria Victoria:  y pense que no puede, que no puede ser que me dio timbre, debe ser otra cosa. Porque ahora yo voy a llamar ahora el jueves que le mande el recado a Pepe de que todo salio bien. Ok?

Bill:  Asi, pero por las dudas no menciones mi nombre.

Maria Victoria:  Ahhh! No! Yo se lo que yo hago.

Bill:  Ah! Bueno, bueno

Maria Victoria:  Pero yo tengo todas mis indicaciones. Que es lo que te pasa?

Bill:  Entonces, este cuando es? Este jueves?

Maria Victoria:  el jueves

Bill:  Ahhh!

Maria Victoria:  El jueves, el numero que te di, o sea, este jueves yo llamo ahi a mi casa y doy el recado que tengo que dar. Asi que, despues de eso, ya vamos a ver porque voy a llamar el otro jueves y te doy eso.

Bill:  Puede ser que le mandes con sobre de que estes, pero seguramente no te…

Maria Victoria:  No te preocupes, yo voy y se lo mando, no te preocupes

Bill:  Ah, bueno, bueno

Maria Victoria:  No te preocupes, yo te voy a decir una cosa, te lo digo sinceramente, hablando por telefono es bien dificil, pero si tu quieres contarle algo a el

Bill:  Aja

Maria Victoria:  Yo estoy en esa direccion, en ese telefono. Yo me voy el 15 de junio. Si tu puedes comunicarte con el por otra manera, para que te des cuenta de quien soy yo, no hay problema

Bill:  tranquila, tranquila

Maria Victoria:  Cuando tu hables con el, tu te vas a dar cuenta porque hay una foto que estamos Pepe y yo, y despues Lazara y yo

Bill:  Y esa foto, cuando te la tomaste?

Maria Victoria:  Eso fue en la misma semana que me fui

Bill:  O sea, cuando te fuiste

Maria Victoria:  Si

Bill:  en la casa de el o donde?

Maria Victoria:  en la casa de el.

 

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I was expecting a call from FBI Agent John Grant. Instead, Intel's Security Chief Steve Lund calls me to Buenos Aires. I tell him that the CIA is about to interview me and that after that he may not have a chance to meet with me. 

Estaba esperando una llamada de John Grant. En cambio, el Jefe de Seguridad de Intel, Steve Lund me llama a Buenos Aires. Le cuento que pronto me entrevistara la CIA y que despues de eso no el probablemente no podra reunirse conmigo.

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Bill: Alo? Alo?
Lund: Hello?
Bill: Hello?
Lund: Is Bill there?
Bill: Speaking! 
Lund: Is this Bill?
Bill: who is this? John? Lund?
Lund: Steve.
Bill: STEVE Lund! I'm sorry, ha ha ha!
Lund: John?
Bill: John, sorry!
Lund: Who's John?
Bill: That's another John!
Lund: I thought you'd REMEMBER me!
Bill: Yeah...
Lund: heh heh heh heh
Bill: So what's new?
Lund: Finding you has been a little difficult, where've you been?
Bill: Oh, lots of things happened since we last talked.
Lund: Oh yeah?
Bill: Mmh hmm.
Lund: Anything good?
Bill: Uh, well... someday, i'll tell you! Maybe!
Lund: heh heh heh
Bill: ha ha ha
Lund: and you're gonna tell me that for the rest of my life.
Bill: I guess so!
Lund: Well, i'm talkin' to the powers that be..
Bill: Aja.
Lund: I'm comin' down there, they're kind of hesitant.
Bill: Aja.
Lund: So I need to get some books so we can figure out, uh,
you know, what's in it for us, what's in it for you, and all of the
down and dirty stuff.
Bill: Aja.
Lund: To give you some idea what we're talking about, what we need,
what the advantages are,
Bill: i'm not sure... I'm not sure i'm gonna say that over the phone.
Lund: Yeah, i've got a feeling you've got a lot that you can tell me.
Bill: There's a lot but you're gonna... what's gonna happen, you're gonna lose your chance. Er, today I was informed, I can't tell you who, that
uh, CIA is coming down here, you're gonna lose your chance, that's what's gonna happen. And after that I can't, uh.. (Interrupted) I'm sorry?
Lund: They're comin' down there?
Bill: Yeah. So you're gonna, you're just gonna miss your window of opportunity. They're gonna be here in the next couple of days.
Lund: Yeah...
Bill: And they have a different interest than you do.
Lund: Heh. Definitely, they always have.
Bill: Yeah, so. You know, all I can tell you right now uh, you know, you're just gonna miss your window of opportunity, and after that I won't be able to talk to you.
Lund: Not at all?
Bill: yeah, probably not.
Lund: Well obviously, you'll need to relocate... I was hoping you'd contact me if that happens before I get back to you.
Bill: Uh... I dunno, I dunno. There's a lot going on right now. There's just too much going on. Behind the stage.
Lund: You know, I wanna work this out with you, but I have to, I can't do it just unilatirally.
Bill: Yeah, I understand, I mean, you know, you've gotta check with the people above, then you gotta pay for your trip, etc etc. Theres uh, too
many people involved typically in these situations, what i'm saying is, at this point, uh, we're getting close to the uh, end of our possibility of being uh, of being able to talk together.
Lund: right...
Bill: we're really pushing it
Lund: er, any idea how long you're gonna be there? I wanna try to...
Bill: you mean today or when? You mean today? How long I am gonna be at this phone? or where?
Lund: The rest of the week, can I still catch you the rest of the week?
Bill: Yeah, if you call me around this time, 8 o' clock at night you're...probably gonna catch me.
Lund: ok.
Bill: Let me give you another phone number, just in case...
Lund: ok.
Bill: Uh, 7-6-7
Lund: ok.
Bill: 5-3-7-9
Lund: is there anything else? Is this it?
Bill: Yeah, uh er, exactly.
Lund: ok. Now what I need you to tell me, so that I can go back and
tell them,
Bill: aja
Lund: ...*mumble* the company is that it's important so we know it.
Bill: aja uh, how can I say this? Mmmh. Well there's obviously a lot you don't know what's happening to your technology. OK? Ahhh it's got to
do with that, and all I can tell you is it's in your best interests to know what's happening to it. ...and that's about as much as I can tell you. It's got to do with that I mean, I was gonna be frank with you,
as soon as you came down here, let'cha know what's going on, but again,
we're, we're reaching the end of the line. Especially with some things that have happened lately, here.
Lund: sure. well, you know, personally, I think that it's important that we do talk, and i'm trying to get that uh, get into everybody's mind so
I can get down there and get this taken care of, I think there's
things you can tell me that would be helpful to me and to the company
Bill: Yeah, That's for sure. You'll be, you'll be Genuinely surprised
Lund: *mumbles*
Bill: But I can't really tell you much over the phone.
Lund: Right, but it would be something that I can uh, at least start working on, obviously
Bill: yeah. It's uuh... really more in your interests than in mine
I'm trying to do you folks a favor in a sense, so you know, i'm not
about to say anything over the phone.
Lund: Ok, ah.. let me make some checks. And uh, I will call you back, probably tomorrow or wednesday.
Bill: Ok again, uh if you call, call either one of those numbers
I would suggest the second number, the one I just gave you,
Lund: ok
Bill: try that one first from now on, and if you call at 8 o' clock at night, ah here, what time is it there? uh, four o clock?
Lund: Four.
Bill: ah, either four, or five. Those are better hours for me.
Lund: ok.
Bill: So either four or five o' clock, you can't catch me at four, that's my other brother's number you can leave, he knows English
so you can talk to him as long as you call after 4 or 5 your time,
you should be able to talk to him, and leave a message with him, he can
speak English.
Lund: Ok. Alrighty, hang tough, and like I say, if something happens,
you have to be movin' in a hurry, uh, just do me one more favor and
let me know where I can catch you later.
Bill: Uh pretty much those are the phone numbers, they will, my brothers
may be able to inform you where i'm at, they ah, I typically tell em', ah where I am going. I leave a message with em' so
Lund: If you have to get somewhere in a big hurry you know, when you GET somewhere, you can settle in, if I don't get you before then, try to call
me one more time at some point.
Bill: Ah, i'm gonna try to do that.
Lund: Ok! anything else?
Bill: Uh, not right now, uh, you can call me in one or two days I may
be able to tell you a little more, but i've gotta think about it.
Lund: ok. Fair enough.
Bill: Ok.
Lund: Alright i'll call you probably wednesday, is the best day
Bill: ok will do.
Lund: Alright. thanks.
Bill: well have a good night
Lund: Take care of yourself
Bill: Sure. That's not so easy! heh heh
Lund: I understand, Bill.
Bill: Ok bye bye
Lund: Bye.

 

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 The head of the CIA in Buenos Aires, William Spencer talks with me at the Hyatt Hotel on October 12, 1994. He is there to ask me questions about Pepe, but he does not give me any guarantees that I will not be extradited or prosecuted. (This is an excerpt from our talk in which we are accompanied by a fellow named Jaime Tyler or Taylor, an intelligence boss of the Argentine SIDE and who was working with the CIA in Buenos Aires on the issue of the AMIA bombings.)

 El jefe de la CIA en Buenos Aires, William Spencer, habla conmigo en el Hotel Hyatt el 12 de octubre de 1994. El tiene instrucciones de preguntarme sobre Pepe, pero no me ofrece garantias de que no sere extraditado o juzgado. (Este es un segmento de nuestra charla en la cual estamos acompañados por un tal Jaime Tyler o Taylor, un jefe del SIDE que estaba trabajando con la CIA en Buenos Aires con el tema de la AMIA).

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